 |
 |
| ★ wanayoo — archive 1999 http://www.macfixit.com/ultimate/Forum14/HTML/001115.html | Nouvelle recherche | Portail wanayoo |
|
|
 Topic Closed
|
 MacFixIt Forums
 Troubleshooting Mac OS 9
 [poll] Mac OS 9 RAM Usage (Page 1)
|
 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 |
next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: [poll] Mac OS 9 RAM Usage |
|
Mark Corrigan Member |
posted 11-29-1999 10:28 PM
  
After doing a "clean" install", has anybody noticed just how much RAM OS 9 uses when booting with "all" MAC OS 9 extension and control panels. This is booting with just the OS extensions/control panels and not any of your software. I'm curious to see how much the OS uses. TIA......... p.s. This is "without VM turned on" ------------------
[This message has been edited by Mark Corrigan (edited 11-29-1999).] IP: Logged |
|
tom vene Member |
posted 12-01-1999 08:25 AM
Marc, w/o VM turned on my 8500/1200 reads 24MB for the system. With VM turned on this drops to about 15MB. However, it seems that VM creates problems, generating error 3's. I'm still investigating this. IP: Logged |
|
Gruyere Member |
posted 12-01-1999 10:03 AM
My OS 9 runs at 55 - 60 Megs on my B/W G3 400. Virtual Memory is off. IP: Logged |
|
Joris 3Pinter unregistered |
posted 12-01-1999 12:43 PM
Something in OS 9 is completely weird with this memory management. The fact that the finder grows does not worry me a lot, it probably makes the system more stable. However I checked the about this computer during a normal session and saw in this window that the Finder was using 3.96 Gb. Off-course my machine does not have that much ram, but something's not completely correct here. J. IP: Logged |
|
Steve Sauer Member |
posted 12-01-1999 01:26 PM
I have a 7300 with a 300 mhz Vimage G3 and 96 megs of RAM. OS 9 uses up to 38 megs of RAM with VM off. IP: Logged |
|
Nitewing98 Member |
posted 12-01-1999 10:41 PM
My iMac has 96mb and the system uses in the neighborhood of 30mb with VM on. I haven't tried VM off. What I find interesting is that I get "Running low on memory" errors sometimes in IE 4.5, when I have 25mb allocated to it! And there is plenty of available RAM for it to request from the system. I have yet to see IE use all of what I have allocated to it! Of course, this could be a MicroSnot problem, not an OS 9 problem... Wasn't OS 9 going to do away with the memory allocation thing and do dynamic allocation? Or is that OS X? ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
tom vene Member |
posted 12-02-1999 07:32 AM
Not that this is any comfort to us, but yes, definitively OS9 has a MAJOR problem managing memory and the heap (see my other mail about this). I wish Apple would be reading this forum and reply to this VERY SERIOUS question and problem. My experience, confirmed by two other guys, indicates that on 8500's one CAN'T use virtual memory, it screws up the machine, knocking out programs (lots of error 3's some 2's) or freezing it. With virtual memory off, OS9 takes 35 to 60 MB of RAM to run, but then it becomes quite stable. Folks you will have to rush to the next shop and buy MORE RAM, no much doubt about it. Apple, if you are following this forum, PLEASE check this and inform us what to do. the best to all ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
Neo Member |
posted 12-13-1999 08:26 AM
How much RAM should the OS be using. I am quite concerned over how different systems are using more or less RAM. Out 2 B/W G3s are both using anywere from 40MB to 60MB for just the operating system. I've gone through and eleminated a many extensions and control panels that are not needed but I can't get this ususage down. It appears from other posts that the more RAM you do have, the more the OS will grab. People with systems having say 60MB the OS will grab 25MB for itself, while others on higher end systems that have over 200MB, 60MB is used. What is up with that? Remember good old OS 7.1? That used less then 10MB. IP: Logged |
|
Dirk O'Neill unregistered |
posted 12-13-1999 11:46 AM
Ok this is crazy. I have a B&WG3 with VM off. I have 128mb of ram and i just looked at the ram usauge. This is out of control. The finder is using 72.3mb!!!!! Apple needs toget their act together on this one. I don't even have appletalk or file sharing turned on. If you have have any sugestions please e-mail me a spiderchaos@hotmail.com IP: Logged |
|
Steve Sauer Member |
posted 12-13-1999 10:50 PM
The best way to try to fix this problem at the moment may be to disable alot of the new stuff. Keychain, multiple users support, security, etc. I've cut my RAM usage for the System down to using about 28 megs. It's funny that the new features would need to be disabled since they were the reason (according to Apple) to "upgrade" to OS 9 in the first place IP: Logged |
|
Ed R Member |
posted 12-14-1999 12:13 AM
I have a PowerMac 8500, 128 Mb, and a Sonnet G3 Processer Card. I upgraded to Mac OS 9 and noticed that it was using 54 Mb of memory. This was almost double of what I was experiencing with OS 8.6. I could not upgrade Startup Doubler to V2.5.2 as it was freezing my machine at startup. The Startup Doubler documentation stated that a corrupted Finder Preferences could be a source of the problem. After trashing the Finder Preferences, my memory usage dropped down to 33 MB. With almost all extensions off, my memory usage dropped from 21 MB to 13 MB. Using Memory Mapper, and with Virtual Memory On, my useage looks like this (Size/Free): High Memory - 7583/0 Hope this helps anyone else with similiar problems. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
Dick Ddavies unregistered |
posted 12-14-1999 08:18 AM
Interesting posts. On my 7500 with 128MB RAM, VM on, random checks have shown from 16 to 19 MB used by MacOS 9. (With 8.6 I was running about 13 or so.) The increase from 8.6 is within reason, I guess. The 3MB variation might be because of different fonts loading (??) IP: Logged |
|
Aldie Member |
posted 12-14-1999 09:03 AM
I have a new iMac DV SE with 128 Mb of RAM. When virtual memory off it uses 35 MB RAM. However, with it on, it uses anout 26 MB RAM, and I think that's acceptable. IP: Logged |
|
bc unregistered |
posted 12-21-1999 02:46 PM
I have an iMac DV with 128 MB RAM. It came with 8.6 installed, I upgraded it to 9 (clean install), and the OS typically uses 28-30 MB RAM with VM enabled. I think OS 9 has a problem managing its own RAM, as I get recurring problems with IE 4.5 (tells me system ram is low), Word, and Excel. Hmm, do we see a pattern emerging? I don't know if the problem is Microsoft related or OS 9 related, but some of the error messages I get suggest it is an OS level problem. If it is OS related, then forcing the OS to use a reasonable amount of additional RAM (say 4 MB) would eliminate my problems. I would like to try this but don't know of any way to do so. Any suggestions? IP: Logged |
|
Scott Martin unregistered |
posted 12-21-1999 02:59 PM
My B&W G3/400 has 450MB RAM and the Mac takes up 50MB with virtual memory off and disk cache set to 5MB. My iMac has 160MB RAM and the Mac takes up 41MB with virtual memory off and the disk cache set to defualt. Try disabling Quickdraw3D, Open GL (if you don't use games), Web Sharing, and other MacOS goodies you probably aren't using. If you have lots of RAM try setting your disk cache to a lower setting in the Memory control panel. IP: Logged |
|
[GraFFix] unregistered |
posted 12-21-1999 03:14 PM
Right now, at this moment, the OS is using 42.1 Megs of RAM, and I'm running Netscape Communicator 4.5. I'm also running a 7500/G3 with 136 Megs of RAM. I noticed that someone was questioning the variations in the amount of RAM used on various machines. Well, to figure System RAM usage, you need to figure in: 1. Actual System/Finder Usage 2. Your Disk Cache 3. System ROM (for iMac's, B&W G3's & G4's) 4. Background Processes 5. Libraries (This changes with VM on) With VM off, the OS must load the shared libraries for the system at startup (from what I understand), while with VM on, it can load them dynamically when needed (which explains the drastic increase in memory consumption with VM off). IP: Logged |
|
[GraFFix] unregistered |
posted 12-21-1999 03:24 PM
I should also say that VM is off on my machine.  IP: Logged |
|
MamaMoose Member |
posted 12-22-1999 03:35 PM
I am running a G4/450 with 384 MB of RAM and VM on. OS9 uses 40 MB and I find this quite acceptable. I find thhat VM on with this machine and OS makes things quite stable and I can afford the 385 MB of hard disk space since it is a 27 GB HD. My guess is that the reason that OS9 doesnt manage RAM well on older Macs is that Apple just didn't try to optimize memeory management across its hardware line. God help us with OS X and "older" Macs like the 1999 version of the G4/450! Mom da Moose IP: Logged |
|
dexterndeedee New Member |
posted 12-23-1999 05:11 PM
Just to toss my two cents in, I only use 33 MB of RAM, with VM on and 928MB RAM installed, on a 9600/350. All Desktop publishing apps, plus Netscape, Golive, ODBC interface, nad email seem to be working fine. IP: Logged |
|
yolk Member |
posted 12-23-1999 07:53 PM
I have a PB/G3 with 128MB and with my settings I use 28MB on a fresh restart. I have VM on. I am using 188 items of 240 (according to conflict catcher). I could list all of them but most people would find it boring. IP: Logged |
|
Billy Wingnut unregistered |
posted 01-12-2000 12:56 AM
I too see a jump in RAM usage when VM is off w/ OS9. I saw it with 8.6 as well, but found that the RAM use dropped significantly if I used RAM Doubler (instead of VM). The funny thing was that I wasn't actually having RAM Doubler increase the memory at all... just having the control panel on decreased the OS memory use. It's so confusing. I like to eat fried chicken. IP: Logged |
|
Warwick Emanuel New Member |
posted 01-12-2000 08:24 AM
Our iMac DV SE is using 58.8mb of RAM for OS 9 system.This Ram usage goes up and down a bit. It was using close to 25mb of RAM for OS 8.6 (which is still too much). Disabling control panels and extensions to the point of reducing the functionality seems to defeat the purpose of having the (new) OS in the first place, apart from which the effect on RAM usage seems minimal. The machine crashed the first time an (installed with OS 9) application ran under the new OS and has continued to do so too frequently and randomly ever since, so the increased RAM used isnt making it more stable.
IP: Logged |
|
bill501 Member |
posted 01-13-2000 10:45 AM
My system is about 40 megs on startup (This with some additional extensions) and grows to about 50 megs with usual use. I have noted that memory fragmentation is not as much of a problem as with MOS 8.x G3/400 SCSI, 512 megs RAM, VM on Bill IP: Logged |
|
Gary P Member |
posted 01-14-2000 12:42 PM
On my B/W G3 400, OS 9 uses 37 MB of RAM at startup with VM on. I have 256 MB physical RAM, so I don't really care. Apple specifically cautions against running OS 9 with VM off, yet many of you ignore this & then complain about all the problems you are having. You deserve whatever you get. IP: Logged |
|
Kashmarek unregistered |
posted 01-15-2000 02:46 PM
I would challenge the posting indicates that Apple recommends against running OS 9 with VM off. I have not seen that. If you don't have enough memory, that is true, but if you have 64 meg or above, not so. In fact, if you run VM on, sound file playback, QuickTime playback (video), and games are all appreciably SLOWER. Apple has a rotten implementation of VM which is solved by appropriate amounts of REAL memory (128 meg or above) and VM off. Many software packages, especially those dealing with video work, specifically recommend VM off to avoid the slowdown. Ken Kashmarek IP: Logged |
|
Jane unregistered |
posted 01-15-2000 07:55 PM
I was angry beccause I ordered two iMacs and one came with 8.6 which I tweaked to perfection but this latest one has 9 on it which is using 40 megs RAM out of 128 with MOST of the new features turned off! Had I known it was running OS 9 I would have purchased it with the maximum RAM. I don't know how I am going to run CADD with this....:-( IP: Logged |
|
Jane unregistered |
posted 01-16-2000 09:26 PM
Addendum: By the time I was finished yesterday, the system was using 55 megs! Why is this? I have all the new stuff turned off. And I had to really work to get the old stuff back the way it was, re: apple menu and such. IP: Logged |
|
kali unregistered |
posted 01-16-2000 10:19 PM
I have a PB G3 266 with 196 MB RAM. With VM off, OS 9 uses about 40-50 MB (depending on how long since the last restart). With VM on, the system uses about 30 MB, but VM causes multiple annoyances, like skips in mp3 playback, etc. I'm hoping that OS X will use less. IP: Logged |
|
Kate Member |
posted 01-17-2000 05:12 AM
System and Finder memory usage gets displayed in the "About this Macintosh" window in strange ways. No the System itself is not increasing in size, but the heap does not get all its memory back from some programs such as MSIE. I think some of the strange reports here are due to MSIE which constantly allocates new memory but does not free it afterwards. Mac OS 9 uses around 30 MB after a fresh startup with VM off. However, depending on what program has run and what programs are currently running the System memory usage may be displayed as 30-70MB due to my experience. MSIE and sometimes Outlook Express are one of the main memory blocking sources. But sometimes the finder itself seems to contribute to memory usage in an unpredictable manner. I think the current memory management and garbage collection ( detection of small memory samples that get reassembled to a bigger chunk ) are very inefficient and somewhat stabilty problems causing system parts. All these issues are in the end caused by the old system design that has its problems to deal with programs and filesizes and speed of modern Macs. IP: Logged |
|
Garry Bradley Member |
posted 01-17-2000 11:14 AM
How about yet another Mac setup. I'm running a G4/450 with 1GB of RAM and with this much memory the Virtual Memory feature is greyed out and disabled. It says "this computer has more than 995M of RAM installed. Virtual Memory can only be used when less than this amount of RAM is installed.' This is totally understandable, with this much RAM who needs virtual memory but I'd quite like the smaller memory requirement footprint that VM supplies. I know the forthcoming RAM Doubler 9.0 lets you use File Mapping only (as previous versions), but will it work on my system? Who knows, I'll try and install it when I get it, I suspect it won't though. Out of interest with 2048K disk cache on my OS balloons to 70MB+ after working within various programs. IP: Logged |
|
Lou F New Member |
posted 01-17-2000 12:59 PM
If you have more than 64MB or so of real memory installed in your machine, you might want to consider setting the Disk Cache size in the Memory control panel to a smaller size manually. With the default setting, the size of the cache will grow when you add more real memory. There is some evidence that a cache size of over 2MB (2048K) is generally wasted. Reference: <http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/tips/cachestudy.html> <http://macspeedzone.com/Comparison/Disk_Cache.html> IP: Logged |
|
Alex A. unregistered |
posted 01-17-2000 01:12 PM
I re-installed OS 8.6 partly because OS 9 was such a ram-hog. IP: Logged |
|
Steve Sauer Member |
posted 01-17-2000 02:13 PM
OS 9 runs poorly on the 6500 machines with 64 megs of RAM I have in a lab. The system ends up using so much RAM that you can only have one or two applications running at the same time and when you quit them and try to run other applications, the whole system crashes. These machines have VM on. I would not use OS 9 with anything less than 96 megs. IP: Logged |
|
Larry Rosenstein unregistered |
posted 01-17-2000 03:18 PM
quote: Apple has been moving more and more of the OS into Power PC libraries. If VM is off and you aren't using RamDoubler, these libraries get loaded into the system heap. (This is how additions to the OS were handled before.) But with VM/Ram Doubler, these libraries are paged into memory as needed, reducing overall memory usage. IP: Logged |
|
hoppin' mad unregistered |
posted 01-17-2000 05:42 PM
ok, I bit and installed OS9 on a 192MB G3 powerbook 400mhz. I run with VM off as a matter of course with 8.6. I turned it off in OS9 and the system like the other reports here is hogging 50-70MB of memory. any VM (RD or Apple's) slows the machine down so badly that it's almot unusable\, plus any audio playback stutters and overall the computer feels like a Quadra now. I think I'm going to revert back to 8.6 since I found that I turned off all the crap in OS9 to try and reduce the memory which is stuff I don't need anyway. there's $99 I won't ever see again. thanks for nothing, Apple! IP: Logged |
|
crash Member |
posted 01-18-2000 04:01 AM
I've got a 350Mhz Sawtooth G4 with 256MB of RAM running with VM off, and a dish cache of 8MB MAC OS Running at 54.7MB This is my second G4, my first was plagued with RAM problems. My first 256MB stick of RAM was "incompatible" with my system. My second (2) 128MB sticks were only recognizing 192MB of RAM, and I ran into all kinds of system errors the more I used the computer. So they gave me a new G4. My second G4 faired no better until I got a "G4 certified" 256MB stick. I was told by an Apple Certified technician that my apps were incompatible with my system or OS9. However I am running the same apps on a 333 Grape iMac with NO problems what so ever. My friend has a 400Mhz Sawtooth G4, and has experienced similiar problems. I must say this computer reminds me of my 6300 performa that had the notorious logic board problems. I have found my nifty new G4 works well for playing Quake other than that it has proved to be the most expensive paper weight I have ever bought! Apps include: *Note I am running all of the above and more on my iMac w/OS9 with ZERO problems! APPLE PLEASE EXPLAIN...or fess up to some serious issues with these "incredible?" new G4's!!! -Crash IP: Logged |
|
Steve Sauer Member |
posted 01-19-2000 09:28 AM
Well, OS 9 still hogs RAM with VM on. IP: Logged |
|
Gregorya Member |
posted 01-19-2000 10:13 AM
OS 9 hogs memory. So does everything else. I think 6.0.5 was stable, used 500k, ran three apps in 2MB on SE/30 - until I wanted to run graphics and page layout. Word 3.02 used 512k and Word 5.1a used 1024-2048k. Those I guess for some are the good olde days. I spent $300 for 1MB Apple RAM in Feb '89. Today $300 buys nearly 256MB (2-128MB @ $149 ea). OS/2 used a whopping 4MB and people complained. Now, OS 9 uses 54MB with VM off and I'm SURE that OS X won't use less. It is all relative. You can go back to 7.5.5 and buy a Quadra 650. But you want to run apps. Apple ships with minimum to allow someone to sell RAM which is a higher profit margin item today. But not so horrible as people make out. With prices and demand and increased costs from non-members of the DRAM alliance, strong sales, Win2000, etc. there is more pressure on DRAM over the next couple years while production and changing to faster RAM techoloy enters the market. SE/30 or IIci cost $3-5k, but my new BW cost under $2k after adding 256MB. So what difference is 25MB? $25-50? Greg IP: Logged |
|
Tim Maddux unregistered |
posted 01-19-2000 12:50 PM
Interesting thread. I have a beige G3/300 DT with 196 Mb RAM, VM on, and every last bit of MSIE removed from my system (except what Office 98 puts back in). Nearly all extensions and control panels are loaded, but Appletalk, File Sharing, Personal Web Sharing, Multiple Users, and the Keychain are not activated/on. MacOS 9 takes up 23 Mb of RAM. I seem to be doing better than most in that respect - tim IP: Logged |
|
Jay T. unregistered |
posted 01-19-2000 06:06 PM
I have a beige rev1 G3/266 with 224 mb of ram. With VM off my system runs from about 45-50 Mb before using any apps. With ALL extensions off It uses only 17-18 Mb however. IP: Logged |
|
bryang29 Member |
posted 01-20-2000 08:55 PM
Running a B&W 400mhz G3 with 128mb of ram. OS 9 with VM takes about 29 to 35 mb of ram usually. But I just looked and it is using 49 mb. I quite all programs except Communicator and no memory was returned to the system. On the other hand, OS 9 is stable for me. With OS X coming soon, I guess a 128mb chip in the third slot might be a good idea. Who would have ever thought that 256mb of memory would be the bare minimum? Remember when your 6115 ship with 8mb and that was alot? IP: Logged |
|
John_Engels Member |
posted 01-21-2000 10:24 AM
I'm bviously at loose ends this morning. Here are the results: G3/300 (beige), 96M RAM, 3072K cache, 226 extensions at full load. All disabled 18.3M I have no idea what this demonstrates. I have no memory problems...at least not on my computer. IP: Logged |
|
Panjandrum Member |
posted 01-21-2000 11:18 AM
Memory usage for me under OS9 frequently exceeds 80mb. I have 384mb just for this reason. For the past several years (I belive since MacOS 7.5), the MacOS has used "memory mapping" to reduce the ram footprint of both the operating system and applications. However the tremendous performance problems with Virtual Memory (and Ram Doubler) have never been worth it. I always suggest leaving VM off unless you absolutely require it. Even on my G4/450 Sawtooth, the performance drain caused by VM is rather shocking. OS X *should* fix this. IP: Logged |
|
Gregorya Member |
posted 01-21-2000 07:51 PM
With the recent updates Apple made, I'm now seeing 60MB on boot VM off. 8MB for disk cache default and 4MB ROAM. ATM and NAV 6 are the two biggest hits, and Apple CD/DVD driver. OWC - if you go to DealMac, has some good prices on TechWork and 2-2-2 RAM just for weekend, only one per customer $165 for 128MB, etc. IP: Logged |
|
mac Fan Dave unregistered |
posted 01-22-2000 02:09 AM
I'm using OS9 on an iMac DV with the standard 64MB RAM with VM on. I've turned off multiple users but it didn't seem to affect the result much. To match the pomp of the political conventions, I say "The Gentleman from the Great State of Texas claims OS 9 on his iMac uses 27 to 28 MB of RAM!" IP: Logged |
|
iMac DV unregistered |
posted 02-02-2000 02:24 PM
I've been using my iMac DV 128 megs RAM since November. I ran it for a long time with 129 megs VM, 4 meg cache (the defaults). I experienced few problems and never even had the DVD problems most had. OS9 has proven very stable, even when running five or six apps. as I presently am (Netscape 4.7, Eudora Pro 4.2.2, Anarchie 3.7, ramBunctious, and URL Manager Pro. My OS9 RAM usage varies from 30 to 32 megs. I have Conflict Catcher 8.06 and run about 5-6 rows of extensions. I decided to try RAM Doubler when it first came out and have used it for several weeks. It doesn't seem as stable as when VM is on so I've disabled it and gone back to VM. Even apps that don't like (supposedly) VM get along fine. I play lengthy classical .mp3 files with SoundJam MP 1.6 and have no problems. I play audio CDS and DVDs with no problems. The only snag I ocassionally run into is with RealPlayer Pro GU. I sometimes get an out of memory error...but this is rare. I used 8.6 for a month on the iMac DV 128megs then switched to OS9 which I find much more stable. BTW, I also have Apple Talk and AppleShare turned on because of my ADSL modem and iTools. I can only recall one time when RAM usage with OS9 grew larger than 32 megs....it went to 36 megs after a very long online session. I have a control strip module which monitors RAM so I always know what it's doing. RAM is cheap. For those with 64 megs who are complaining buy another 64 meg stick. I've used Photoshop 5.5, but not with especially large files, with no problems at all. System 7.1 is the bad old days, OS9 is the best system I've seen. IP: Logged |
|
ReggieFromRiverdale unregistered |
posted 02-02-2000 04:48 PM
I have a PowerTower 180e (heh) with 128 RAM and 8.6, VM is ON. Currently, MacOS is taking up 22.5 Meg of memory, and that's not too shabby. I think the main thing users have to realize is that MSIE grabs as much memory as it needs from the System heap, regardless of what you set in the application! So giving it 25 or 15 or whatever more than the recommended will not make a difference. In that respect, MS lies to its users claiming that IE only takes up 4 megs of RAM. BS! I always have VM on, except for capturing/editing audio, and never have a problem. I think RAM doubler is more trouble than its worth; remember, RD does NOT allow you to run more programs simultaneously or assign more RAM to applications, all it does is reduce usage my filemapping (or at least that's what the Read Me said back in version 1. My then employers were too cheap to buy us real RAM, so we had to use RD. many crashes later, I de-installed it). VM acts like real RAM, only much slower Again, your mileage may vary, but on this old Mac, VM and 8.6 is the best combo I've seen since 7.6 IP: Logged |
|
Pi Thanks New Member |
posted 02-02-2000 08:03 PM
MacOS 9 uses up to 33MB on my iMac DV.(2560KB DiskCache) VM is off and 3D extensions are off. Language Kit for Korean and japanese are included. That's all. IP: Logged |
|
bennett9000 Member |
posted 02-02-2000 09:46 PM
My G3 233, 96mb is, at this moment, using 23.8mb, with VM on. It has been as high as 32mb, at least when I think to look. OS 8.1 used to use 12 ... sigh... IP: Logged |
|
humane Member |
posted 02-02-2000 11:18 PM
My 6500/225 running OS 9 is using 36MB as I write. This is only a couple more MB than 8.6 used. On 8.1, it was in the neighborhood of 13MB and I thought THAT was an incredible amount!! ------------------ IP: Logged |
This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 All times are ET (US) | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
  |
|
Copyright © 1999-2000 by MacFixIt.com, Inc.
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.45c
